Sound Stage

[Blazin4050]

How is it done? How do you get that great sound? That is right there big and wide! I Had people tell me, Speakers outside the car. Is this ture, and were at? Can someone help me on this! Thanks

[gary f biggs]

what kind of vehicle do you have?
what kind of speakers are you using?
what kind of processing are you using?
what are the limits to the amount of fabrication you are willing to perform?

[Hebrew Hammer]

the best advice that I can give you....

minimize point sources...
minimize path lengths....
and get them as far and as wide as you can...
and overbuild!!!!!

[xtremekustomz]

Randy, I remember a while back when I saw some pictures of your truck that you were working on and you had the midrange and tweet around the dash area. How were you able to get your path lengths close??? Your truck must have been alot different from mine because I measured every possible location that I could without removing all of my ac/heater, relocating all of my electrical, and making new brackets for my steering and nothing was even close. I'm sure it would have been alot closer if I had been able to mount on the firewall but on a daily driver I'm not giving up ac and heat.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Randy, I remember a while back when I saw some pictures of your truck that you were working on and you had the midrange and tweet around the dash area. How were you able to get your path lengths close??? Your truck must have been alot different from mine because I measured every possible location that I could without removing all of my ac/heater, relocating all of my electrical, and making new brackets for my steering and nothing was even close. I'm sure it would have been alot closer if I had been able to mount on the firewall but on a daily driver I'm not giving up ac and heat.

in the truck when I was working on it...mocking it up for a 2way...custom dash...no a/c etc.. seats moved/seat rails extended, I measured 6 1/2 inches of pathlength differences...the drivers were basically were the firewall and the kick panel meet..

[Blazin4050]

what kind of vehicle do you have?
what kind of speakers are you using?
what kind of processing are you using?
what are the limits to the amount of fabrication you are willing to perform?

2000 Pontiac Grand Am
Veritas Horns
Veritas "8
MB Quart 6.5 Q-line (Midbass)
Phoenix Gold EQ232 and Phoenix Gold Crossover
Whatever it takes

[SoundSphinx]

2000 Pontiac Grand Am


Buy a Buick Regal.:dance:

[gary f biggs]

great answer!!!

[Hebrew Hammer]

2000 Pontiac Grand Am
Veritas Horns
Veritas "8
MB Quart 6.5 Q-line (Midbass)
Phoenix Gold EQ232 and Phoenix Gold Crossover
Whatever it takes


one problem I do see is that you are using a higher eff horn and 8 and lower eff midbass..not a good combo IMO...and no reason why that 8 couldn't do midrange/midbas duties if isntalled and tuned properly...which is going back to the whole less point sources thing

[MacLeod]

Find and go to as many SQ competitions as you can. I learned more in the last year and a half in competing than I had in the previous decade!

[DonaldRyanCrouch]

4" Midbass hidden in compartments behind the headlights. Seriously though what Aaron said

[awehmeye]

The lower efficiency midbass and high efficiency horns shouldn't be a problem, so long as you have MUCH more power for the 8" speakers and they can handle the amount of power required.

Remember, when you're mounting the horns, that the wavefront begins at the mouth of the horn and not the aperature of the compression driver. The two big benefits of horns are the high efficiency and the pattern control. Horns decrease the dispersion of the sound and will eliminate some near-field reflections from the dashboard and the floor. You'll still get the benefit of the reflections from surfaces near you and behind you. The midbass placement will be really important because you'll have to rely on them to play much of the midrange. Because of that, choose a midbass driver that is NOT a subwoofer. The inductance of the voice coil contributes a lot of high-frequency roll off, so if you're using an 8" with a 4- or 6-layer coil, you're asking for trouble.

If you use horns, you'll need lots of EQ. Oh, wait...you'll need lots of EQ anyway, because this is a car.

The width of the stage will be mostly defined by the outside boundaries of the front speakers. The reflections from the door surfaces will help. Rear speakers with proper delay and some algorithm that decorrelates their output form the output of the front speakers will also help with width. Pro-LogicII can be a big benefit there, just like Logic7, which will someday be available in one of our products.

The most important thing to concentrate on is making sure the frequency response from left and right is identical. Choose a high-resolution EQ or, better yet, a parametric with separate adjustment for left and right. Find someone with an RTA and some experience to help you tune it. Don't bother too much with a bunch of HRTF reading for these purposes. Those HRTF graphs and EQing according to them aren't as effective as some folks would have you believe because the sound in your car doesn't move. Your brain uses CHANGING frequency response to map the movement of sounds. Simply adding a peak at 3k will sound more like bad frequency response than someone singing above your dash.

There's no magic in minimizing the effects of the compromises you'll have to make to get great sound in your car.

1. Make sure nothing rattles.

2. If you have no center channel, make the pathlengths for midbass drivers as close to equidistant as possible.

3. The same goes for the high-frequency drivers, but the effect you have to minimize with an equidistant mounting configuration is a difference in level-- -6dB for every doubling of distance. Aiming the tweeters across the dash and mounting them in the a-pillars is a band-aid for that problem. The near side tweeter is so far off axis that its high-frequency response is attenuated for the near listener. The center image will be better than on-axis aiming for that placement, but the left and right frequency response can't be matched. Vocals will drift from side to side a bit, especially sibillance.

4. A vented box with an EQ to minimize the inevitable peak in the response will provide lower-distortion bass that's more difficult to localize than a sealed box, provided the port is big enough and isn't noisy.

5. Don't mount speakers far behind grilles or door panels. The best baffle is a flat one that extends outward from the speaker's surround. Mounting the speaker 3" behind a grille that is smaller than the cone will cause a bunch of nasty peaks and dips (at higher frequencies) that you'll have trouble getting rid of with EQ.

6. DON'T overlap the subwoofer low-pass and midbass high-pass. The phase problems that will cause will destroy great, realistic bass in both seats. You'll have a hole in the midbass in one seat and a peak in the other, a hole in both, or a big peak in both. All three of those suck, unless you don't care about the passenger's seat. Choose a crossover point near the midbass driver's resonance, a steep slope and tune the subwoofer to match. Shoot for a smooth transition from 50Hz to 200Hz.

7. Use several mic positions all in spots around where your head will be to make your measurements. Tune for the driver's seat first, then make compromises for the passenger's seat. Expect to spend a great deal of time on this part.

[Slick]

Awesome post Andy.

[Fozz]

So mounting your tweeters on axis is bad, and so is totally off axis? Not sure if I read that right. What is a good alternative for tweeter mounting?

[awehmeye]

Equidistant and on axis and high is best if there's no center. If there's a center and some processing, then sail panels and on axis is best.

[Andy_Jones]

How do you get equidistant and high? What location would offer that (in any vehicle)?

[awehmeye]

None, but it would be best. That's why I wrote, "There's no magic in minimizing the effects of the compromises you'll have to make to get great sound in your car" and then gave a bunch of suggetsions.

[Fozz]

I can get pretty close to equal distances in my car on my dash. But it would place the tweeters closer togther then they currently are. It would also put them behind my mids which are mounted on the dash. Would this create other problems? Would the width of the stage narrow?

[awehmeye]

The stage width might be narrower, but sound reflected from the windshield might help you out. What car is it?

[Fozz]

I have a 2000 Neon. My mids on mounted in a sphere attached to the "A" pillar as far back as I could put them. Currently my tweeters are in the sail panels and are very much off axis. I have considered simply adjusting their angle to put them more on axis with the driver. I used the sail panel because it is the widest part of the car that I can mount a speaker, and I wanted the best width I could get.

[winslow]

The Veritas 8s are pretty darned nice 8s. Efficiency is in the mid 90s range (95-96 area). I had heard they were "based" on the JBL 2118.

They would make great midbasses for you.

[Silence]

Sphere-Sooo much misinfomation once again...

Your old "Veritas AW-75" compression drivers were Radians believe it or not, and they used Aluminum diaphrams (not Titanium)...They did not have slits in the diaphram and they do have a regular phase plug...

The Veritas 66's were Radian drivers too FWIW.

[winslow]

I'm pretty sure Radian has always used aluminum diaphragms...at least for the last decade or so.

You put 2" drivers on 1.5" throats? Did you use adapters or open up the throats more? Cause the Veritas throats that I've looked at would be pretty much maxed out with a 1.5" opening...but I haven't seen the Veritas 1.5" throats.

[Silence]

I thought they looked like radians drivers, although my diaphram was titanium, I mentioned the slits where in the phase plug that came with them...would you happen to know if the phase plug with the AW-75's work with the radian (950pb) drivers I have now?

Nope, they are Aluminum diaphrams.

You posted a bunch of technical reasons why the new drivers sound better from the diaphrams to the phase plugs, and then you ask if the phase plugs are interchangeable??? You seriously need to stop the BS in your posts, if your new drivers sound better than the old ones, thats terrific, but quit with all the technical BS which you've clearly fabricated...

To answer your question, the phase plug sits under the diaphram of the compression driver and extends into the throat. Your new drivers have a 2" throat/4" diaphram, and the old ones are a 1.4" throat/3"diaphram, so no, they are not interchangeable.

Winslow also has a very valid point, you have a 2" throat driver coupled to a 1.4" throat horn, not a good match to say the least...

[winslow]

Hey Sphere...Silence probably has a set of those horns and drivers. You want to bold call him out saying he is trashing your post, and then you call him ghey? Come on dude...at least spell friendly correctly if you are going to bold it.

The fact that you think you can pull out a phase plug from one driver and put it in the other really tell me that YOU have no idea what you are talking about or doing. If Radian thought the older phase plug design would have worked better, then they would have used it in the new 950s too.

No, I did not know compression drivers go hot during play back with about 5-10 watts on them...that's news to me. And yeah, any person with half a brain would know those fins are heatsinks- neo magnets don't like heat.

[CraigMBA]

ATTN: MODERATOR!!!

Forum Member: SILENCE ~ has nothing better do to than to Trash other peoples freindly posts! ~

Ok got that out of my system, Silence, your GAy.

Attn: Sphere:

You are the one treading on thin ice. Post accordingly.

[winslow]

I'm sorry dude, but those horns are not seeing anywhere near 75 watts when you are listening to them. At 111 dB efficient, you MIGHT be giving them 3-4 watts...5-6 when you are about to go deaf from the volume levels, and that's IMO a pretty liberal estimate. My home horns at 100 dB efficient use less than a watt to get pretty loud...so I'm doubting you are much into the single digits in the car with much more efficient drivers.

http://www.radianaudio.com/products/compression/2neo_driver.php?viewT=compression&viewC=2neo_driver

Motorcycle exhaust? You think he might have been pulling your leg on that one?

And regarding the phase plug...you think the engineers at Radian don't know as much about compression driver design as you do?

[winslow]

You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

No, I haven't heard those particular ones...but I have owned Veritas 44VDAs, ID CD1es, CD1-Pros, and every CD-2 motor made. I have installed Illusion CH-1s with the Radian PD465 motors...I have installed and have had horns for basically the last 10 years. So yeah, I have heard a horn or two.

There is NO way you are giving those drivers anywhere near the double digits of power listening to them in a car...the largest amp that I have had on my ID CD-2s was either a Linear Power 2.2 or a Brax X2000...both in the 150 watt range at 4 ohms. The gains were turned physically all the way down AND I still had to cut about 10 dB of volume on the horns to get them to mate with the 8" midRANGEs I as using at the time.

Why don't you go and turn the stereo up to as loud as you can listen to it. Then, get a DMM and a test tone track. Measure the impedance of the driver at that frequency...then measure the AC voltage going to the speaker from the amp. Then you can determine how much real power the driver is seeing.

[Silence]

ATTN: MODERATOR!!!

Forum Member: SILENCE ~ has nothing better do to than to Trash other peoples freindly posts! ~

Ok got that out of my system, Silence, your GAy. YES they are TITANIUM!...Bill Bib who sold me those informed me these diaphrams where specially made at a Califiornia speaker manufacturer he paid to make for him...although their production process was rather sloppy, and sometimes the diaphrams where glued to the VC crooked, and I ended up sending one back to him because of this. I paid $200 each diaphram.

The Radian's I have now are almuminim and they sound crisp in the upper 12khz regions and stay more linear than the previous set-up...guy, if you ever heard of the AW75's you'd know that no amount of tweaking could get them to sound smooth, although the newer digital audiocontrol stuff was able to some-what tame them for me.


Yes the Veritas Horn bodies are only a 1.5" exit hole, but I modified them to a 2" by grinding the exit hole to a 2" diameter. I was able to do this due in part to the excess material that was available on the horn body without cutting too deep into the horn bodies structure itself... Again I'm thinking of using the phase plug with my previous drivers with the ones I have now to see if I can lift the ambiance up slightly....silence your simple " no 1.5-3" will not work with 2"-4" diaphram" tells me you have no clue on how they actually work.


Also the 950pbs have metal fins incorporated on top of the magnets, the engineer informed me these fins where for design purposes only, but if most of you know, compression drivers magnets get very hot during lengthy high volume play-back...I anticipate that these fins will act as passive cooling for the magnet assembly dissipating any heat away from the VC itself!

And my soundstage with these drivers is just as detailed and well placed.

I found what was causing my localization problem with my horns, and seems that when I cross them down to about 900HZ localization effects occur...where as before I crossed my horns at about 1.2khz for power handling reasons....and localization was less audible. I might consider crossing them over a bit higher to 1khz... but I like how their harmonics work crossed a bit lower for Vocals and certain instruments etc.

I am not trying to trash anyones posts here Sphere, I am simply asking you to quit posting misinformation all over the board, much like you have in the ""Why New Music Doesn't Sound As Good As It Did" post in the Audio Questions and Answers forum. If you go read the reply's there you will see that nobody understands the fabricated techno-bable you seem to add in everyone of your posts, much like your posts here...

The reason I know you don't have a clue about compression drivers is because you seem to think the phase plugs are user interchangeable. They are not. If you did manage to get one out you would have a tough time trying to force a 2" wide plug into a 1.4" throat, do you see where I am comming from?

Something else to consider, I have owned every model of Veritas horn made (including the AW-75), and still use them to this day. I have also used many different compression drivers on the Veritas horn as well including TAD 2001's, TAD 2002's, various Image Dynamics drivers, Radian drivers, B&C drivers etc. The AW-75 can be made to sound very sweet with proper tuning (which is why I'm guessing is why you can't make them sound good).

I am willing to share any experiences/tips I know and have learned while using the Veritas horns, but I have a tough time sitting here reading all the BS you've posted, and not saying anything about it.

Winslow is also a great resource when it comes to horns and stereo's in general, and I'll bet you'd learn a lot if you were willing to listen, rather than make up fairy tales to boost your ego.

[Silence]

I know I'll be considering changing my current phase-plug with the previous AW75 drivers phase plug...as long as the exit hole of the 950's is similar to the exit hole in the Veritas drivers,then it's a done deal.

Sphere-I will say it one more time, just in case you missed it the first three times. The exit holes (driver throats) are not the same, one is 2", the other 1.4". If you still don't see the problem, I will explain it the best I can: ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE OTHER.

Perhaps this will help:

2" - 1.4" = .6"

Example: A 2" phaze plug will not fit in a 1.4" "hole" unless you use a rather large hammer...

Has the light come on yet?

[genxx]

Sphere-Is that a joke or are you really asking that question? Maybe I just don't get it if its a joke.

I am partially car audio retarded and I understand it but I will let Silence answer it.:doh:LOL

[winslow]

So I see some posts were deleted by someone.

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Sphere-I will say it one more time, just in case you missed it the first three times. The exit holes (driver throats) are not the same, one is 2", the other 1.4". If you still don't see the problem, I will explain it the best I can: ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE OTHER.

Perhaps this will help:

2" - 1.4" = .6"

Example: A 2" phaze plug will not fit in a 1.4" "hole" unless you use a rather large hammer...

Has the light come on yet?

I don't use horns.. but I think I got it :D

[Silence]

Blazin4050, I hope we didn't get to far off track here. It seems you have some really nice equipment and with a little work I bet it will sound great. I have also used the Veritas 8" drivers and they are an excellent midbass, you wont have any need for the Quart midbass. From my experience they do preffer a rather large enclosure though, so give them as much airspace as possible. As mentioned earlier in the post, try and mount them in the kick area to reduce pathlengths as much as posible. You may have to do some cutting to get them to fit, but it will pay off in the end. Provide them with plenty of power, they will need it to match the horn output.

Follow the basic rules for horns and you should be off to a good start. Mount them as level (horizontal) as possible, as far out to the sides as possible, and without any toe-in, toe out. The Veritas horns usually come with a PRC network (small passive in line unit) that will cut some of the midrange output, it may help in your case, it may not. It's worth a try though. Do not feed the horns a lot of power, they are very efficient. A good rule of thumb is to stick to a 3 to 1 power ratio for the midbass/ horns respectively, but it's not written in stone.

Good luck with your install, keep us posted as you progress.