I have the new IASCA rule book

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Yeap, I have the new IASCA Rule book for 2006.

I have not finished reading it and it's a lot thicker than it has been in past years.

[winslow]

How you feel about getting docked for relay clicks/noise?

[Mike Lacher]

Originally posted by winslow:
How you feel about getting docked for relay clicks/noise? you've got to be kidding...?

some amps have relays built into them.

[winslow]

Nope. I was told that to score max points, that the system should be totally silent...and that included relay noise.

[ February 04, 2006, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: winslow ]

['96camryman]

I got popped (pun intended) for relay clicks built into amps. Tried to convince judges they were inherant but they said it didn't matter. That was with the old rulebook.

[Mike Lacher]

on the old rules, it depended on the judge. If you read the rulebook carefully, in my opinion, external mechanical noise is the be judged while the system is playing the zero bit track, NOT during turn on and turn off.

turn on / turn off noise clearly had to be generated by speakers.

[dkenned1]

what about noise generated by the radio when it opens/closes? All Cd players make noise sucking in the cd at the least, but what about the ones that have motorized faces and stuff?

yes I've been hit on that. total garbage

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Originally posted by winslow:
How you feel about getting docked for relay clicks/noise? My issueis with line 3 that states:
3. The Judges must listen for noise under two conditions. A). Engine Running High beams on (ok, same as before) B). Engine off with key in the "Assessory" position, then switched past "Off" to the "On" position (not ignition) to test for system noises.

Sounds like the B) section of the test is DESIGNED to catch relay thump from a batery isolator.

In my car ON and Ignition are the same, then there is start. At ON you get fuel pump, battery relay and anything else that runs or is required to start or support the car. May need some clarity on this one. The best way to get rid of Relay click is to not use one, yeap, run straght wire between batteries. For IASCA a relay or isolator is OPTIONAL. In USACi a relay or Isolaor is required.

Originally posted by David Kennedy:
what about noise generated by the radio when it opens/closes? All Cd players make noise sucking in the cd at the least, but what about the ones that have motorized faces and stuff?

yes I've been hit on that. total garbage The new rules state head units in the dash can not receive deductions for pop, tick, clicks, or whatever that orginate from the physical unit In The DASH itself.

Mean while there is no such protection for Computers or head units mounted under the seat, etc.

[winslow]

Anthony, they were talking about bosch type relays used for remote turn ons and other applications, and relays in amps.

[Anthony_B_Davis]

The remote turn on relay click is an easy fix ;)

I actually learned how to fix it reading Auto Sound 2000 Tech Briefs. I've used the fix since I were a novice.

[awehmeye]

Instead of a re;ay, use an MJE 3055t or a TIP 120. Base=remote from head, Collector=12v+ and Emitter=Remote to amps.

[SoundQ SVT]

Originally posted by Anthony_B_Davis:
My issueis with line 3 that states:
3. The Judges must listen for noise under two conditions. A). Engine Running High beams on (ok, same as before) B). Engine off with key in the "Assessory" position, then switched past "Off" to the "On" position (not ignition) to test for system noises.

Sounds like the B) section of the test is DESIGNED to catch relay thump from a batery isolator.

In my car ON and Ignition are the same, then there is start. At ON you get fuel pump, battery relay and anything else that runs or is required to start or support the car. May need some clarity on this one. It sounds like this rule was written on the assumption that the various positions for the ignition key are:
-Accessory
-Off
-On
-Start

As Anthony mentioned, our cars are not in that order...
-Off
-Accessory
-On
-Start

So are the judges going to have to go to "Off" from "Accessory" before turning the key to "On"? Or can they simply go from "Accessory" to "On" if "Off" isn't physically between the two?

And please tell me there won't be any point deductions for the second or two of fuel pump noise when the key is turned to the "On" position. That would be just silly.

[Willshifi]

My favorite is the tie breaker.

In the event of a tie the winner will have the highest sound score, if they are the same then the highest install score, if they are the same the highest rta score, if still a tie then SPL score.

If you are tied and have the same sound,install & RTA score you must also have the same SPL score or you wouldn't be tied to start with. Ha Ha!

[Willshifi]

Anthony, just lifted your car off of the battery rack.

[winslow]

How do you compensate for relay clicks inside some amps?

[C Music]

Originally posted by winslow:
How do you compensate for relay clicks inside some amps? Jason,

(sic) Just like the old IASCA has always wanted you to do, go out and buy new amps that don't have clicks. Your new purchases will help support the industry! :rolleyes: (sic) You needed to be around when upgraded alternators, extra batteries, and alarm creativity items counted for points in every class.

Well I guess you and I will have to take point deductions if we decide to use our perfectly working Brax amps.

[ February 06, 2006, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: C Music ]

[C Music]

Originally posted by Anthony_B_Davis:
B). Engine off with key in the "Assessory" position, then switched past "Off" to the "On" position (not ignition) to test for system noises.
Umm... What if your car don't use keys? :confused:

[SoundQ SVT]

Originally posted by C Music:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anthony_B_Davis:
B). Engine off with key in the "Assessory" position, then switched past "Off" to the "On" position (not ignition) to test for system noises.
Umm... What if your car don't use keys? :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Then you lose points on noise???

Good question though...

[Willshifi]

Chuck,

Exactly what is wrong with making the rules for car audio competition favor better product? Or purchasing new better product? It seems like a good way to have quality manufactures associated with your orginzation.
I worked on some of the security competition cars back in the early 90's. It was cool.
I've long held the idea that if you want to compete your car should have a great alarm, great install, great looks, great sound. The whole package. Everybody wants to split it all up until they win.

[awehmeye]

THere's nothing wrong with forcing manufacturers to make better product, but whether an amplifier includes a relay that makes a little "tick" hasn't much to do with "better or worse". A car audio contest should be about car audio. A car contect should be about the whole car.

[GndPrx]

Simple question based off of my in-laws new hybrid escape.

Engine doesn't run unless you are moving over a certain speed/throttle position or low on battery charge. So how can you test for noise with the vehicle running? There is also no turn key from on to accessory. It's either on or not.


Just some thoughts ;)

[Willshifi]

All things equal...

The competitor without the tick should win. Right?

[C Music]

Originally posted by Wil Thorne:
All things equal...

The competitor without the tick should win. Right? If the tick comes from the speakers, then points should be deducted. But if the amplifier (or other equipment) is designed to have mechanical noises, like relay clicks on the remote turn on and/or speaker outputs that are not heard from the speakers, then no points should be deducted. That's the way it has been for the past 10 or so years. No doubt you have encounted judges that have said you have the wrong equipment; do we want to get that started again?

It comes down to should the competitor be penalized for the equipment he or she bought although the system sounds great and has no incorrect installation problems?

[ February 06, 2006, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: C Music ]

[winslow]

I agree Chuck.

Why should I get penalized for a click in a circuit that I have no control over?

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Although most of US Judges have learned the difference between a Relay Click and Sub or Speaker Pop, I think others would whether say a noise is a noise.

It makes it easy on the judge(s).

USACi also says dead silent is the only way to get a perfect noise score. Again, I think they want to make it easy on the judge.

I learned to do IC relays as a novice because I got tired of IASCA judges calling my relay click in the dash a speaker pop (which were in the doors).

Not to say I don't think it's wrong to get docked for relays on amps or caps, but I think some thought was put into making the rule as it is.

Still I want to know the reason behind testing the on position with the car off.

I foresee a many turn on/off deductions.

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Wil, you mean you didn't have to beat the crap out of the battery box to get it out :D

[Willshifi]

Originally posted by winslow:
I agree Chuck.

Why should I get penalized for a click in a circuit that I have no control over? Yes you do. Who picked the amp? Who installed it where the judge could hear it? If your not responsable for the tick, who is?

[winslow]

Who designed the amp with the relay inside? That wasn't me.

I can put a relay under my hood and you can hear it click inside the car.

The person can not be responsible for clicks and noises related to the design of the equipment.

Next thing you'll say is that you should get docked for tracking noise in a CD player b/c you chose that player and where it was installed. Or motorized face noise...

COme on Will, you know that is B.S.

[Willshifi]

It is not B.S.!


You picked the equipment! That was you?

[Willshifi]

Originally posted by Anthony_B_Davis:
Wil, you mean you didn't have to beat the crap out of the battery box to get it out :D I did use a 9000lb lift and a 3 foot prybar!
Congradulations!
Now your car is totally messed up.

[ February 07, 2006, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Wil Thorne ]

[winslow]

And up until now clicks and noises associtate with the normal functioning of the equipment was fine.

It is complete BS and you know it. It is a slippery slope argument. Next thing will be getting hit for a motorized face moving inand out.

[Willshifi]

Anthony experience is the same as most of ours. If you have a noise when your radio turns off you will likely get hit for it. You might be able to argue your way out of it. Do yourself a favor get rid of the noise.

I remeber judging Troy Babcocks car. He had a remote turn on relay mounted under the factory speaker grill in his dash and had been hit for turn off pop several times. And that it shouldn't be counted against him.

Wich is true but why deal with it when you can just remove it? Troy removed the relay and his amps still turned on.

My point is that a great car will be completely silent. And they are!

[Mike Lacher]

getting docked for mechanical noise is pure BS unless it interferes with the listening of the music.

That means noises that happen during play should be eliminated (fan noise for example). Mechanical noise associated with the power up and off of equipment, or the mechanical operation of a piece (motorized face) should not be deducted.


I'm just gonna slip the guy next to me some $$ to jam his system very loudly during my system noise judging, and I'll be happy to return the favor smile.gif .

[BobG]

Originally posted by Mike Lacher:
getting docked for mechanical noise is pure BS unless it interferes with the listening of the music.

That means noises that happen during play should be eliminated (fan noise for example). Mechanical noise associated with the power up and off of equipment, or the mechanical operation of a piece (motorized face) should not be deducted.Amen, brother! BS rule as it sits now.

[TAPBMW3]

Originally posted by Mike Lacher:
getting docked for mechanical noise is pure BS unless it interferes with the listening of the music.

That means noises that happen during play should be eliminated (fan noise for example). Mechanical noise associated with the power up and off of equipment, or the mechanical operation of a piece (motorized face) should not be deducted.


I'm just gonna slip the guy next to me some $$ to jam his system very loudly during my system noise judging, and I'll be happy to return the favor smile.gif . back to the old days. have mike mineo next to you jammin' ''rage against the machine'' while you are getting judged. ok, during noise though, good thought except for the fact that he could get disqualified for blasting it during judging. tongue.gif

[C Music]

Originally posted by Wil Thorne:
It is not B.S.!


You picked the equipment! That was you? There is a new competitor trying out his first IASCA competition. He maybe had his system a few months and has invested a fair amount of his hard earned money into it. He does not know about the updated noise rule, nor many of the other rules, but his system is installed correctly and sounds great. Then he loses a chance at a trophy because of a non-audio related noise that is designed in his equipment. Do you really want the judges to tell him he lost because he chose (before he thought about competing) to buy brand X equipment instead of brand Y or Z? This is a easy real way to run off new competitors.

Originally posted by Wil Thorne:
Anthony experience is the same as most of ours. If you have a noise when your radio turns off you will likely get hit for it. You might be able to argue your way out of it. Do yourself a favor get rid of the noise.

I remeber judging Troy Babcocks car. He had a remote turn on relay mounted under the factory speaker grill in his dash and had been hit for turn off pop several times. And that it shouldn't be counted against him.

Wich is true but why deal with it when you can just remove it? Troy removed the relay and his amps still turned on.

My point is that a great car will be completely silent. And they are! I remember Troy. He was a fun guy. Too bad we lost him a few years ago.

What Troy (or I should maybe say Steve W. did smile.gif ) was remove something external to the equipment. What the rest of us are talking about are noises that are designed into the equipment from the factory. My $3000 Alpine F#1 Status CDA-7990 has an internal relay that can be heard. Are you telling me to rip open a perfectly working head unit to fix something that was designed to work that way? I may know how to do installs but I don't know my way around a circuit board well enough to start rewiring it just to get rid of a non-problem.

What about all the people that will have to rip open their equipment and void the warranty just so they don't get docked points? The person may have just bought several thousands of dollars of equipment and now the rules basically say they are obsolete unless the person is willing to take point deductions everytime or try to re-engineer the circuitry.

There are enough rules already that seem bogus to new competitors (and old competitors alike). We don't need more of those rules.

[ February 07, 2006, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: C Music ]

[Harry_Kimura]

I would think this would be a little more lenient for the novice classes just like we are little more lenient on everything else for the newbies. Now, for those seasoned competitors, it is a different scenario. For the longest time I, as a judge, have never docked based on relay noises of any type. That's because the rules clearly stated so. Now, that the rules have been changed that will change my judging methods. Now, this is the first time I heard of this change, so I will have to wait for my copy of the book. Actually this is how it was, I remembered being docked for relay noises and we made sure after that, not a peep was heard during turn-on/off.

I think one thing you have to consider in all of this is (Devil's advocate hat on): "Was there a relay noise before installing your competition car audio system?"

That $3k Alpine HU has a noise, well that's a booboo by the development team at Alpine. Maybe if we scream more at the manufacturers instead of IASCA, they (not only Alpine but the other manufacturers as well that don't seem to have their **** together when it comes to final product QC) can make something that doesn't have these inherent flaws.

[ February 07, 2006, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Harry Kimura ]

[winslow]

I dunno if I would call it all flaws, but maybe the relay was the best solution to the problem.

[MDietrich]

Hi all,

Lets see here....

Multi national companies have to redesign their amps to satify some obscure rule for a competition organization that has maybe 1000 active members world wide....I DON'T THINK SO

Once again IASCA has shown they just don't get it.....

Markey Dietrich

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by MDietrich:
Hi all,

Lets see here....

Multi national companies have to redesign their amps to satify some obscure rule for a competition organization that has maybe 1000 active members world wide....I DON'T THINK SO
You don't get it, not for some org. Think about it.

[CraigMBA]

Originally posted by C Music:
This is a easy real way to run off new competitors.

There are enough rules already that seem bogus to new competitors (and old competitors alike). We don't need more of those rules. Stop making sense please.

[CraigMBA]

Originally posted by Harry Kimura:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MDietrich:
Hi all,

Lets see here....

Multi national companies have to redesign their amps to satify some obscure rule for a competition organization that has maybe 1000 active members world wide....I DON'T THINK SO
You don't get it, not for some org. Think about it. </font>[/QUOTE]And now even I'm confused. graemlins/freak.gif

[awehmeye]

In many cases, that internal relay is there to prevent even uglier noises from making it to the speakers. This is especially true for Class-D amplifiers or any other product that relies on some synchronization of the components.

From a product development standpoint, I don't think anyone wants to pay (in increased product cost) to reingeneer components to eliminate those noises when a simple relay that disconnectes the outputs will suffice for the vast majority of consumers because IASCA finds it easire to write a rule in absolutes rather than rely on the discretion and consistency of the judges.

The real question ought to be, "Do extraneous noises diminish one's ability to enjoy the music?" That would be impossible to judge with consistency and competitors would likely argue, "It doesn't diminish MY ability...".

Those of you who insist on a set of rules that eliminate judges discretion from the equation are to blame for this. If competition was a matter of subjecting your car to evaluation by a panel of qualified judges and taking the results of that evaluation as constructive criticism, we wouldn't need these kinds of rules. If you insist on having rules that draw a line that you can point to when you don't agree, rules like this are the result.

I'd love to see olympic performances judged this way...then we'd have skaters with the rule book in their pants and a bunch of ranting and raving when all the "2"s were held up after a poor performance.

[C Music]

Originally posted by Harry Kimura:
I would think this would be a little more lenient for the novice classes just like we are little more lenient on everything else for the newbies. Now, for those seasoned competitors, it is a different scenario. For the longest time I, as a judge, have never docked based on relay noises of any type. That's because the rules clearly stated so. Now, that the rules have been changed that will change my judging methods. Now, this is the first time I heard of this change, so I will have to wait for my copy of the book. Actually this is how it was, I remembered being docked for relay noises and we made sure after that, not a peep was heard during turn-on/off.Thank you for judging by the rulebook! graemlins/thumb.gif That's the way all judges should do their judging. But in this case I think the rulemakers got it wrong.

I think one thing you have to consider in all of this is (Devil's advocate hat on): "Was there a relay noise before installing your competition car audio system?" Before I installed my head unit in the car I powered it up on my test bench with no amplifiers or speakers connected and it did have a relay click. I think the relay activiates the flourecent light for the display.

And just to cover my bases, the factory radio in my previous competition vehicle did have a quite relay click when turning it on and off.

That $3k Alpine HU has a noise, well that's a booboo by the development team at Alpine. Maybe if we scream more at the manufacturers instead of IASCA, they (not only Alpine but the other manufacturers as well that don't seem to have their **** together when it comes to final product QC) can make something that doesn't have these inherent flaws. At this point in time, who needs who more? The larger manufactures don't need IASCA, USACi, MECA, SLAP, and DB Drag to get their product sold. Why should they bow down and re-engineer their already correctly designed products just to satisfy some rule from an organization that represents maybe 1% or 2% of the customer sales base? I agree with Andy on this one.

[ February 08, 2006, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: C Music ]

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by Andy Wehmeyer:
In many cases, that internal relay is there to prevent even uglier noises from making it to the speakers. This is especially true for Class-D amplifiers or any other product that relies on some synchronization of the components.

From a product development standpoint, I don't think anyone wants to pay (in increased product cost) to reingeneer components to eliminate those noises when a simple relay that disconnectes the outputs will suffice for the vast majority of consumers because IASCA finds it easire to write a rule in absolutes rather than rely on the discretion and consistency of the judges.
How is this any different from a decade ago when they were docking points for this? I remember having to house bosch relays in a box and damping the damn thing to make sure the clicks weren't heard in the car. There are plenty of amps out there that don't have this problem. I think the consumer should demand the best when he is going to purchase an item with his hard earned money. I sure wouldn't want to hear a succession of clicks and pops everytime I want to hear my stereo. I also would expect it to do everything it is advertised to do.


The real question ought to be, "Do extraneous noises diminish one's ability to enjoy the music?" That would be impossible to judge with consistency and competitors would likely argue, "It doesn't diminish MY ability...".
True, we aren't judging how one enjoy's his system, rather we judge how accurate it is. Those are 2 different things.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here, like I said I haven't received any documentation to review or do I know the intent.

[ February 08, 2006, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Harry Kimura ]

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by C Music:
At this point in time, who needs who more? The larger manufactures don't need IASCA, USACi, MECA, SLAP, and DB Drag to get their product sold. Why should they bow down and re-engineer their already correctly designed products just to satisfy some rule from an organization that represents maybe 1% or 2% of the customer sales base? I agree with Andy on this one. Sh1t. If I had to pay 3k for a frikkin Car CD player, it better be near perfect. Maybe that's why there is so much JUNK out there, because "they" know they don't have to put much effort into it.

Hey I don't necessarily agree with the rule because it just makes my job as a judge more time consuming.

[awehmeye]

Harry,
Suggesting that the inclusion of a relay inside an amplifier makes it a lemon is preposterous and irresponsible.

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by Andy Wehmeyer:
Harry,
Suggesting that the inclusion of a relay inside an amplifier makes it a lemon is preposterous and irresponsible. Andy, tongue-n-cheek, dude..settle down beavis. ;) Anyhow, like what I say here really matters. Does any of this really matter?

Anyhow I got the "gist" of the rule, you all have been wasting your time with this.

Relay noise deduction is only at it's most SEVERE case. 99.9% of Internal amp relays won't be deducted. Again this is in the most SEVERE case.

So, I was told it is the same as it was last year in regards to the relays.

Sh1t, all it took was a phone call to get clarification.

[ February 08, 2006, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Harry Kimura ]

[awehmeye]

OH. OK, I get it. This isn't the RC forum...

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by Andy Wehmeyer:
OH. OK, I get it. This isn't the RC forum... No, but I'm sure RC invented it. tongue.gif

BTW read my last post about relay deductions..

[ February 08, 2006, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Harry Kimura ]

[cjacobson]

Harry does bring up one interesting point, that now a competitor may want to really step up in the effort needed to build a perfect car, even if that includes silencing a FACTORY relay for the fuel pump by adding deadening because it will be barely audible. This is about as bad as one judge who pointed out the loose wire loom under our hood, the FACTORY loom mind you, right next to the power wire secured every 6 inches in its loom in a street class, and said the OEM loom needed to be secured better to score full points.

There's intent but then there's the implementation and reality. There are other cars with relays in the dash that are barely audible and they've been docked under previous rules. While this has been an issue that competitors work around (run 20 ft of wire to put relay in trunk) bringing it up should be a good thing, a time to improve things.

Think of this long-term - IASCA has a reputation for being incredibly nitpicky on installs and points. Ask around the college demographic that's heard of competing or are into stereos. Many are much more eager to consider a format with no install. A typical car show doesn't require a $10,000 paint job to enter and most will happily enter any car they feel is 'nice'. Adding more junk like this makes it seem like IASCA is trying to encourage the building of "Riddler Award" cars. If so, at least they won't need to whittle the field down to the Great Eight...

From a newer competitor perspective, this BS install stuff sucks a lot of the fun out of car audio. All of the old-school guys who think big installs and big SPL are paramount should really look at the reality of who would want to compete. How many people really try to enter the Detroit Autorama or build a car to sell at a Barrett Jackson auction? Yet you can drive around on a nice weekend in the summer and stumble onto a car show at a resturant parking lot with better attendance than an SQ show.

[MDietrich]

Harry,

I'm not worried about getting docked by any of the judges that work the big shows. The ones who will dock people will be the ones who do the local shows. Too many times we have read on these forums about judges who don't "know" the rules.

The competitors who will suffer the most will be new ones. You know the guy who wants to compete with his nice system????

Markey Dietrich

[Harry_Kimura]

I get your point Markey, that is where you hope the judges' training can take care of this. But inevitably there will be mistakes at local shows, you've run into them and I have numerous times.

[Mike Lacher]

ok guys, not to beat this dead horse, but I just finished reading my new rule book, and do not see any rule wording that even hints that relay clicks during turn-on/off can be deducted.

page 51- turn on / off testing:
states that it's a pop, thump or click heard THROUGH THE SPEAKERS, as the system is powered up and down.

mechanical noise:
ths is the section relays would fall under, in addition to fans, motors, etc ... this test is to be done while listening to floor noise using the 0 bit track. So a relay click that happens only during power up and down should not even be considered for this.

just my interpritation...

now I don't need to swap out the board level relays in my amps.


mike

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by Mike Lacher:
ok guys, not to beat this dead horse, but I just finished reading my new rule book, and do not see any rule wording that even hints that relay clicks during turn-on/off can be deducted.

page 51- turn on / off testing:
states that it's a pop, thump or click heard THROUGH THE SPEAKERS, as the system is powered up and down.

mechanical noise:
ths is the section relays would fall under, in addition to fans, motors, etc ... this test is to be done while listening to floor noise using the 0 bit track. So a relay click that happens only during power up and down should not even be considered for this.

just my interpritation...

now I don't need to swap out the board level relays in my amps.


mike Like I said this has been a complete waste of time....

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Actually I've only found 3 changes in Noise testing.

1. (3b., page 50) Testing with engine "Off" with the key in accessory position, then switched past "Off" to the "On" position.

Before, during engine off testing, you just test in Assessory position.

2. (bottom pg 50) The ignition switch is not to be used as the main power switch for the system.

Before the competitor could define the ignition switch as his main on/off switch.

3. The new rules do not mention noise gating, heterodyne or switching noises.

Before there was a whole paragraph and points on each in the Ultimate rule book.

I did not find anything stating relay noise is any different than before.

Mechanical noise judging is the same as before.

[ February 21, 2006, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Anthony_B_Davis ]

[winslow]

What abour startup/shut down times? Was thinking about a carputer...but not if it wouldn't boot fast enough.

[Mike Lacher]

I think the book mentions 20 seconds.

ff.
It should be possible to get a computer to boot that fast, especially if you set it to hibernate.

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Yeap, 20 seconds or you get 1 point on Turn On/Off.

This is why some would use ignition as main power.
You were garanteed everything would turn off or on in 20 seconds because you kill power.

IMO, Computers should not be able to hybernate. The entire audio system must turn "completely" off.

The burden is on the competitor to show that the equipment is completely off or on by the main switch (6. page 50 and 51).

[Mike Lacher]

Anthony, don't confuse hibernate with sleep.

Sleep is a low power state, but the computer is still running.

Hibernate takes a snapshot of the ram and loads it to a disk image, so that when it starts up, it can simply load the ram image and pick up where it left off. While hibernating, the computer is technically not running.

[thoraudio1]

Originally posted by winslow:
What abour startup/shut down times? Was thinking about a carputer...but not if it wouldn't boot fast enough. How fast will the HSS cycle?

[Mark Eldridge]

Jeez..... Noise judging and deductions.....

Why can't all of the organizations just wake up and make it as simple as possible. If there is a noise caused by the system, not in the recording, that interferes with listening to the music, then deduct points accordingly. A slight noise, maybe one point. Big alternator whine, maybe five.

Yes, as Andy said, it would be somewhat subjective. But with only a couple of minutes of TRAINING (yea, that "four letter word"), where all judges are given actual audible examples on some type of REFERENCE SYSTEM (another "four letter word") of how many points to deduct depending on the level of interference, it would be much better than it is now.

Who cares if a relay click is heard through the speakers as a turn on/off tick? Who cares if there is a very slight amount of hiss when a zero bit track is played with the volume wide open? There's no music playing then.

And I understand the old idea that a competition system should be as perfect as possible, even if the competitor had to modify components internally to accomplish it. I've spent more hours and money than I car to think about getting rid of little noises that some hyper-critical judge heard, and deducted points for. I know it was the standard, and to some extent still is. That doesn't mean it makes any sense, and that it's no less dumb today than it was 15 years ago, in my opinion.

There is of course no excuse for a turn on/off pop that blasts the listeners' heads into the windshield. I've judged a few that would qualify for not only points deductions, but for ejection from the competition, if the rules would allow it. smile.gif

Anyway, soap box time is over... This noise judging thing is just a huge waste of time, and a great deal of money on the part of manufacturers and consumers, in most cases. And, it's just another of those little things that chase away more competitors.

[Harry_Kimura]

Originally posted by Mark Eldridge:
Anyway, soap box time is over... This noise judging thing is just a huge waste of time, and a great deal of money on the part of manufacturers and consumers, in most cases. And, it's just another of those little things that chase away more competitors. This is how I've always done things in noise.

1) listen for hiss when material is playing if you hear it over the music --&gt; deduct.

2) if I hear a click or a pop on turn on / off --&gt; deduct

3) engine whine on zero bit --&gt; deduct.

4) I don't think I've ever heard heterodyne interference in a lane.

5) I listen to the track to track information for gating, not that stupid fade away track. Needless to say, I haven't encountered something that affects the listening of music.

[Anthony_B_Davis]

Originally posted by Mark Eldridge:
Jeez..... Noise judging and deductions.....

...If there is a noise caused by the system, not in the recording, that interferes with listening to the music, then deduct points accordingly. A slight noise, maybe one point. Big alternator whine, maybe five.

Yes, as Andy said, it would be somewhat subjective. But with only a couple of minutes of TRAINING (yea, that "four letter word"), where all judges are given actual audible examples on some type of REFERENCE SYSTEM (another "four letter word") of how many points to deduct depending on the level of interference, it would be much better than it is now. Actually the new rules are subjective:
5 pts = Perfect, No detectable noise
4 pts = One slight, barely noticeable noise
3 pts = Two or more noises
2 pts = Noticeable or multible noise
1 pt = One or more pieces of equipment are not
turning off

I guess that would be 4 changes in Noise Judging (sorry, I said 3 before smile.gif )

Before it was 0 or X pts for each noise category.

Concerning the noises they deleted, in 8 years of judging I've heard heterodyne once in the lanes and right now can't remember what it sounds like.

I had 2 vehicles with Ignition interference.

And several with switching pops or zipper noise.

I can't remember what head units did not have zipper noise in the late 90's. I know my Alpine and Clarion did.

[CraigMBA]

Originally posted by Mark Eldridge:
And, it's just another of those little things that chase away more competitors. And their retailers that just lost a customer because the customer is all bitter that they were sold bad product and have a hack install.

After all, that's what the judge told them with all the deductions. Right?

[johnl]

Originally posted by CraigMBA:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Eldridge:
And, it's just another of those little things that chase away more competitors. And their retailers that just lost a customer because the customer is all bitter that they were sold bad product and have a hack install.

After all, that's what the judge told them with all the deductions. Right? </font>[/QUOTE]basically-

[Audiophyle]

Originally posted by CraigMBA:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Eldridge:
And, it's just another of those little things that chase away more competitors. And their retailers that just lost a customer because the customer is all bitter that they were sold bad product and have a hack install.

After all, that's what the judge told them with all the deductions. Right? </font>[/QUOTE]And the deductions come from ridiculous rules that the "sanctioning" bodies come up with.

Driving away business from retailers - completely against the "Mission Statement" posted on the website...

[CraigMBA]

Okay.

Just making sure I wasn't missing something.