AS&S Editor comments

[Jamie Edmundson]

Post up what you think about this editorial. It was written by an editor who I've never heard of in AS&S.:

A couple of months ago we kicked around the idea of doing a competition special,
our way of acknowledging the start of the season, a symbolic shot from the editorial
starting gun. But really it just seemed like a good excuse to feature a few tight, tight
installs and the competitive people who own them. As the issue took shape, we
realized we'd been neglecting our SPL peoples in favor of the SQ bias. This caused
no small debate at editorial meetings.

"Who cares about those test tone pencil-necks anyway?" asked one of the crew.
"Nothing but a bunch of beaters shot full of amps, subs and corrosive batteries.
Foul things..."

"But SPL is the shiznit," said another. "It's the only format with any excitement. I'd
rather watch my dentist floss other people's teeth than watch SQ judges do their
thing."

"But what's the point? These systems are not playing music. It's a tragedy that we
even have to share association with this nonsense. Can't they get their own amp
and speakers? Why do we have to share brand and models with them?"

And on it went. Co-workers who'd once been friendly took it as a personal affront
when others attacked their preference for sound quality or sound pressure. In the
end, the SQ geeks won out and the SPL fiends mollified with the promise of an
SPL-dedicated issue later in the year.

I weighed in with my opinion, formed after going to Finals, reading the rule books
and discussing the future of car audio. My view is clear: SQ is wack. To clarify: the
pursuit of quality, hi-fidelity sound in your ride is noble, a challenge to embrace. We
can assume you, rabid reader, enjoy driving. We can assume you enjoy driving
while listening to music. Perhaps like many of you, I spend more time cueing
tracks from the driver's seat than the remote on my home system. Sound quality is
a good thing. Someone grading the sound quality of your system is straight-up
lame.

Look at who's grading you and what they base decisions upon. Most car audio
judges come from the car audio business. They've grown up playing with speakers
and cables and now make a living at it. They've heard thousands of car systems,
and maybe a few good ones in the home as well. This here, folks, is the problem.
The frame of reference for most SQ judges is as narrow as an anorexic's side
profile. They're judging you based on the best car system they've heard.

This'd be fine if the rules stated sound should be tailored to the car environment.
But SQ rules instead say that your system needs to make a concert stage emerge
from the ether and sit squarely on your front bumper. Guitars from the left, keys
from the right, female vocals from rear center - does anyone else not find this kind
of criteria ridiculous?

You want my system to reproduce a live concert? OK, give me a well-recorded disc
from a live concert and give me detailed notes from the front-of-house engineer
about where s/he placed voices in the mix. Better yet, give me the front-of-house
engineer and have him wax on my system. A good friend of mine works in live
sound. He's blessed with a mad set of auditory cilia that pick up errant frequencies
like a Jack Russell fox hunter. He does this for a living and gets plenty of practice. If
anyone should break down how a system should reproduce a gig, it's the people in
his trade, not guys who spend too much time in cars messing with knobs and
sliders rather than getting out and seeing shows.

Now if we're talkin' imaging, give me a record producer. I want frickin' Rick Rubin
sitting in my whip going, "Ummmm, no, Morello's guitar should really come from
farther left 'cause that's how I mixed it." I'll take Brendan O'Brien (STP, Pearl Jam,
Rage) - or even his fourth freakin' assistant - telling me my imaging sucks over
some decrepit prune who's too intimate with those sucky Sheffield Labs discs and
all their neutered sax squeals and compressed drums (although the KODO:
Drummers of Japan disc on Sheffield kills).

No disrespect to any judges out there, but unless you're hitting a lot of live shows,
rapping with the engineers or hanging in the control room at Ocean Way Studios,
you're not the best qualified to drop science on how a system should perform -
again, according to the criteria set forth by the competition associations. If you
compete, you pay good beans to join the association, to enter events. Demand they
get some judges who understand the criteria they've set forth.

Hell, the snowboarders, skaters and surfers do it. The guys judging those contests
are former pros, media types and filmmakers - in other words, the people who've
been in the doo-doo and seen the best. When Sunny Garcia or Tony Hawk
compete, who do you think they want judging them? The cats that they themselves
looked up to or the owner from Rad Skate & Surf down the road?

I propose a team of three judges for every car audio competition: one music
industry pro, a former, non-competing car audio champion(someone with mad
trophies and hella respect) and a media kook. The music pro judges the sound
quality, the car audio champ judges the safety and difficulty of the installation and
also weighs in with SQ comments and a media kook gives an overall score based
on SQ and presentation.

Here this: I by no means consider myself an expert on car audio. I'm an enthusiast
just like you (even if the nature of our enthusiasm, one obsession differs). I love
music, and I love to hear it through a clean system with plenty of bump. Like my
colleagues at the other mags and Web sites, I've had a great opportunity to see
and hear some of the best systems in the country. And while I respect and will
listen to any advice offered by the elders in the game, if money, rep or trophies are
at stake, I want the pro's decision.

------------------
Jamie Edmundson

IASCA Expert
USAC Expert 601 +
1996 Impala SS
XTANT, MTX, STREETWIRES, SONY,
COUSTIC, WESTCO. JL AUDIO

See the car that is beeing built for ever
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Lane/7768/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Lane/7768/index.html)

See the 2000 IASCA Expert class show case
http://www.geocities.com/expertcar

[This message has been edited by Jamie Edmundson (edited May 01, 2001).]

[INSTALL JUDGE 4 LIFE]

SOUNDS LIKE THIS GUY IS ON THE VERGE OF DRINKING A 40oz. OF WHOOP ***! I GUESS THIS IS HOW SOME PEOPLE SEE US SQ GUYS & GIRLS BUT GUESS WHAT WHEN WE STP BUYING THIER MAG AND CLOSING OUR CARS TO THEM FOOR FREE PICS FROM SHOWS IT NAY HAVE AN IMPACT ON THEM!($$$$$)


NOW HOW ABOUT THAT WHOOP ***!

------------------
Jeff Smith,
TEAM XTANT
TEAM GLASSWERKS
97 HONDA ACCORD,*MB QUART*XTANT*SONY ES*JL AUDIO*STREETWIRES*17"ANTERA 143'S
http://www.teamglasswerks.com

[CraigMBA]

written by an editor who I've never heard of in AS&S.:My view is clear: SQ is wack.

and

Someone grading the sound quality of your system is straight-up lame.

Why didn't he just write this instead of wasting all those words in a ed-op column?



------------------
Carlton Duty Jr.
Public Relations
Arc Audio/Rainbow USA

[BetaTDI]

Leave it to AS&S (who has been producing nothing but cow**** for the past few years) to finally put together an issue worth looking at and start it off with a nasty little rant of BS like this. This guy insults every SQ judge who has ever driven 3 hours each way, taken time away from their family, and spent a weekend in an un-airconditioned car for $40 and is basically calling them morons. I planned on simply letting my subscription lapse but after reading his line of BS I'm going to call them up and cancel the balance of it.

And Jeff...I have a couple of six packs of whoopass laying around the house. I had planned on simply letting them collect dust until my car was done but I may have found a use for them right now.

------------------
Jose Perez
98 VW Jetta TDI
IASCA Certified Judge & Pro Ultimate 601+
My Home Page (http://members.nbci.com/BetaTDI/)

[johnl]

Does he expect rick ruben to judge?
How about Jimmy Jam?

It takes hard working enthusiests (sic) to come and judge our cars. This guy doesn't know the first thing about competition. It is dumbasses, like him, who don't understand the sport and are killing it before they even goto a couple shows and figure out what is going on.

[smakdwn]

yeah I read that peace of crap artical! He claims he's no expert in car audio and he backed that up with his rantings. Good thing I read that part last or I would of ripped the dang thing up!! I never buy this mag on a regular basis (not since paul mortonsen left) but I promis you this! They will not get another dime of my money!!!!!!

------------------
Ralph Hunter
proud member of dBs
Iasca 1-300/1-600 Nov (again?!?)
GOT NOS??
If my car is rice, it must be instant, cause it cooks!!

[Charles Logsdon]

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/frown.gif


[This message has been edited by Charles Logsdon (edited May 04, 2001).]

[Brad Eubank]

Well guys, you may not like his article, but alot of people outside of SQ circles feel that way, including factory guys and alot of former competitors. Some of the stuff he mentions is why SQ is dying. Five years ago there were shows with 100 SQ cars and either no SPL or one or two. The guys that compete in SPL now used to be SQ guys. Why do you think that is?

[JONASTY]

I read the article when it came out - I have to say that i agree with some of his points to a certain degree. As for blaming AS&S - its just an opinion and he has the right to it. This is journalism and I personnally love it when I read articles like this!
Over the years I have also seen an immense increase in SPL installs and most of thenm i have spoken to say they compete because its FUN! I'm not saying competing for sq isn't but I actually have heard VERY few in sq say that they have a blast. Because it is a subjective area, you'll always have dissagreements with judges especially when some of them pour their hearts, souls and money into them but it makes you wonder how qualified they truly are to judge a recording on your system. Why does the same system sound different to 3 judges without any tuning changes done? - stage height, width, depth!!!! - i have heard some amazing stories and i'm sure all you have too - how does one gain faith in this? you begin to question judges and their training.

[Brad Eubank]

Originally posted by JONASTY:
Because it is a subjective area, you'll always have dissagreements with judges especially when some of them pour their hearts, souls and money into them but it makes you wonder how qualified they truly are to judge a recording on your system. Why does the same system sound different to 3 judges without any tuning changes done? - stage height, width, depth!!!! - i have heard some amazing stories and i'm sure all you have too - how does one gain faith in this? you begin to question judges and their training.


Maybe part of the problem is there is no way to "judge" the judge. A rating system by the competitors is needed to determine how good a job a judge is doing and give feedback to the organization. The judges are there to make the competitors happy and encourage them to compete. Why not let the competitors decide who the judges should be.

[MDietrich]

Hello all,

I may be in the minority with my post, but here goes.

I have never met the gentleman (at least I don't remember) so I will give him a little benefit of doubt. This guy could have written this article, tounge in cheek.

I look at it from this view.... At least they did a SQ issue, so if I have to ignore some guys rantings so be it.


Markey Dietrich

[eddiejulie]

The best articles are the ones the create controversy and conversation......I think he accomplished both.

[Paul]

Look at who's grading you and what they base decisions upon. Most car audio
judges come from the car audio business. They've grown up playing with speakers
and cables and now make a living at it. They've heard thousands of car systems,
and maybe a few good ones in the home as well. This here, folks, is the problem.
The frame of reference for most SQ judges is as narrow as an anorexic's side
profile. They're judging you based on the best car system they've heard.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I STOPPED COMPETING. AS SOON AS I REALIZED I WAS BEING JUDGED AGAINST THEIR CAR'S SOUND AND NOT THE TRUE STANDARD.

[Dragon Lady]

Ok, a semi-objective point of view. I will be competing SQ (first show's coming up), but know MANY SPL competitors. I know Dan pretty well as I'm a contributing writer for AS&S, and I don't think there was any motivation to create controversy. In fact when I read the column, I joked with him about "going over to the dark side".

This kind of commentary does back to a thread I believe I saw on the USAC forum- how do SQ competitors get more interest? Yes, it's probably easier on competition grounds to get attention in SPL lanes- you hear something that loud, you turn your head almost instinctively with a "what on earth was that!@!" It IS harder to catch someone's ear for SQ. But SQ installs do catch people's eye. Someone I interviewed for AS&S, gave me the best quote I ever heard about SPL- "SPL, by nature, is UGLY." That tends to be true.

So maybe the question isn't as much how much we should gripe about this editorial and how we disagree, but how can we set about changing the impression that SQ is boring?

SPL'rs feel like they're the red-headed stepchildren of car audio and car audio media, and feel the focus always tends to be on tricked-out SQ and multi-media vehicles. SQ'rs feel the same, but that SPL gets all the recognition. The arguement will go on and on unless a few people decide to get proactive and work on changing those misconceptions.

That's part of what makes car audio so much fun- is there are no two installs alike, whether SPL or SQ. You can have individuality -- and you can have your own opinion, as well as hopefully can appreciate that of others.

[soundqman]

Originally posted by Paul:
Look at who's grading you and what they base decisions upon. Most car audio
judges come from the car audio business. They've grown up playing with speakers
and cables and now make a living at it. They've heard thousands of car systems,
and maybe a few good ones in the home as well. This here, folks, is the problem.
The frame of reference for most SQ judges is as narrow as an anorexic's side
profile. They're judging you based on the best car system they've heard.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I STOPPED COMPETING. AS SOON AS I REALIZED I WAS BEING JUDGED AGAINST THEIR CAR'S SOUND AND NOT THE TRUE STANDARD.

Right, I'm sure your car was great too.

[smakdwn]

I understand what you are saying Krisa and agree. But his comments were way off basis about sq comps. Yes that may be his opinion but it would seem it's a uneducated one! He wants industry pro's to judge cars? Heck sometimes it's hard enough finding 3 people to judge a sq comp let alone ask some recording engineer to take time off to sit in a hot parking lot!

Like you said, SQ cars have the tricked out installs, and as you know this is what sells mags!!! This is not a SQ VS SPL thing, but Mr Frio needs to know what he's talking about before he states his opinion. The way the artical reads, it's his opinion stated as fact, Not opinion stated as opinion. My car is not worthy of mag coverage, but if it were I would not let it be featured in as&s.
Heck I've just ripped out gear (in perfect working condition) because of the snubing they gave me and other "no name" competitors at finals. If I'm willing to spend 1000.00 just to get a certain company outta my car, ya know I'd tell AS&S where to stick it!

But This is my OPINION! and I'm not stating it as fact. By the way your artical was good, I enjoyed it. They should of gave ya more pages thou. I'll yak at ya on chat.

------------------
Ralph Hunter
proud member of dBs
Iasca 1-300/1-600 Nov (again?!?)
GOT NOS??
If my car is rice, it must be instant, cause it cooks!!

[Dragon Lady]

Ralph, I see your point of view and respect it. http://www.carsound.com/ubb/smile.gif And thanks for the compliments. I guess the common characterization that it's SPLrs vs SQrs kind of gets to me, as does the attitude by some people on both sides of the fence.

It's interesting and amusing to me that it's SQ guys doing the bulk of work on Alma's Bronco, and getting world records with it!

I guess I just feel like it doesn't have to be one or the other, and maybe we should point out what is interesting about SQ and SQ competitions, besides the glitz and flash of nifty installs. I know I'm new to the game, but I do see the fissures in the car audio community, and do see that SPL "gets the crowds" at shows where both is offered -- at least during judging.

[Enraged]

soundqman, if you dont have anything constructive to say, dont say anything. we dont need insults being flung around here.

[smakdwn]

Originally posted by Enraged:
soundqman, if you dont have anything constructive to say, dont say anything. we dont need insults being flung around here.

What the heck are you talking about? I hope this is not in ref to my post? Maybe you need to read it again! I did not insult ANYONE in my response. ya ever heard the saying "talk what ya know?" well in the artical in question the writer did NOT talk about what he knows! Just because as&s will never get another of my dollars does not mean I'm insulting them or you! If you like the mag then buy it! I'll read all of Krisa slocums articals before I leave hastings!!
that's just my two cents!!

[Enraged]

(look one post above yours.....)

[CraigMBA]

In all the years I've competed, I only can remember ONCE comming across a sound judge who shouldn't of been judging. The guy obviously didn't like me, and scored me near zero on everything, including noise (it used to be a 20 point catagory, I got 2 that day with a system that got 20's at events before and after). For what it's worth, I have a set of 15 year old (although recently refurbished) Vandersteens (plus a Speakercity 12" powered sub) for reference speakers in my home hifi, and try to get to at least 6 live (and unamplified) events a year. That can be a challenge when you live in the cultural cesspool I do, but the high school band and choir is always availible (and FREE too). I suspect I know what a string bass or a hi hat Zilijian sounds like.

Install, on the other hand, is another matter. I've had more inconsistancy in install than any other area. Some judges like it, others don't. This is the area where we really need judges training. You can figure out the sound end on your own if you try. The install rules, by comparison, are subject to interperation.




------------------
Carlton Duty Jr.
Public Relations
Arc Audio/Rainbow USA

[wagonmaster]

Well if this yo-yo doesn't know anything about car audio he shouldn't be the editor of a car audio magazine. maybe the building janator is payed more.

Tim

[MDietrich]

Hello all,

After reading the post so far, I have come to the conclusion that most don't like this guy Filo's editorial. I have to agree that it is kinda wacked to have something like this in an edition that features sq installs.

The one thing that does tick me off some is being called a "geek". Now if any of you have met me, I don't think "geek" would describe me. ( http://www.carsound.com/ubb/smile.gif) In fact I know quite a few sq guys that don't fit the "geek" mold.

Without ever meeting Filo, the one thing that this guy brings to mind is "wannabe gangster" Is this a true description of him?. Proberly not. So I would hope he wouldn't classify every sq guy as a "geek". Because we aren't.

seeya

Markey Dietrich

[mobilebeatz]

Nah, Markey, you're not a geek. http://www.carsound.com/ubb/wink.gif

[The General]

In response to Markey's, because he's fresh on my mind from reading it last-

i just cant see where the whole wannabe gangster thing came from...

All in all, and keep in mind, I know basically nothing about SQ comps, I thought the article was great. The SQ guys say the same things about the SPL competitions. So what? Youre SQ people, theyre SPL people, but its all car audio. Granted, the sq cars might RTA a little better than the Extreme 1-2 class, but hey, to each his own, right?

You sq comp guys are getting a tad bit too defensive about your hobby. It's all one in the same. They(spl guys) have install talents that are out of this world, just like you guys do. Their install talents are geared toward a different end result than yours are, and that is the only thing that separates you.

------------------
<LI>The General
<LI>Clarion
<LI>Focal + Xtant
<LI>Infinity + Hifonics
<LI>A big need for Dynamat Premium
<LI>All in a big black 'Burban (http://members.sounddomain.com/will60)
<LI>

[smakdwn]

Originally posted by The General:
In response to Markey's, because he's i just cant see where the whole wannabe gangster thing came from...

Sorry If i steal any of your thunder Markey but I'm at work with nothing to do :) I think the wannabe ganster statement comes from the fact that in the artical he's using all of the street slang buzz words, and to tell you the truth most were used in the wrong context.


You sq comp guys are getting a tad bit too defensive about your hobby.


I would not call it defensive, but you hafta realize sq shows are shrinking! spl guys can go to a show on any given weekend, we can't so that's why we may be a lil testy :)


It's all one in the same. They(spl guys) have install talents that are out of this world, just like you guys do.

This is true and most sq types will not dispute this. Here is an example of bad edicate from some of your spl buddys.

At the last show I was at, the spl guys were tuning for thier next round, but they were tuning while SQ competitors were being judged!! they were asked to keep it down but did not. so maybe it's those types that give spl guys a bad rap. Now on the flip side, some SQ guys will close thier cars right after judging. This does nothing for fan support, where am I going with this? no idea :)

In closing, most Sq people are not out to burn the editor in effagie (spelling) but we do not want our hobby mis represented!! We need new blood in the sq lanes, and his artical will not help because it casts us in a un cool light. Geeks? How many spl guys drive a bad azz car like steve browns? How many spl guys drive a nitrous powered civic coupe? This is what you will see in the sq lanes.



------------------
Ralph Hunter
proud member of dBs
Iasca 1-300/1-600 Nov (again?!?)
GOT NOS??
If my car is rice, it must be instant, cause it cooks!!

[Enraged]

i say to each their own, whatever you want to do with your cash is your business. I'd rather have a nice daily driver car with a SQ install than a trailered car for SPL. but thats just me.

[The General]

well, I wouldnt call the SPL guys my 'buddies', because as I've said, I don't compete. Several SQ competitors have painted very ugly pictures of the current status of the competitions though, which leads me to believe that, no matter how much this particular Ed. has experienced them, this editorial was warranted. Either way, I love both types of comps and find them both very fun to watch/attend. Where I'm from, there arent many kinds of shows for EITHER, and I live in TX. People around here have a great bit of driving to do no matter what kind of comp they want to go to. As far as etiquette goes for the SPL guys, I can't say anything about that, but I'm sure they werent doing it out of defiance or anything. I'm also sure that both sides are guilty of doing something that got on the other's nerves. I do totally agree that at abig show though, an SQ competitor should not leave his car closed up and just go party or whatever. At Spring Break Jam, there was this KILLER Focal car that myself and shootme from this forum wanted to hear, he had tons of championship stickers on the side. We didn't even get to see the inside, let alone hear it. It was locked in the parking lot the entire weekend except for when he was being judged.

------------------
<LI>The General
<LI>Clarion
<LI>Focal + Xtant
<LI>Infinity + Hifonics
<LI>A big need for Dynamat Premium
<LI>All in a big black 'Burban (http://members.sounddomain.com/will60)
<LI>

[MDietrich]

Hello all,

As far as the general tone of the article, well to be nice, it just isn't so.

SQ is a discipline that entails 4 areas. Install, Sq , RTA and SPL.You have to be able to do all four somewhat well to win.

SPL on the other hand uses just two areas, install and spl. It just has to be functional, not pretty.

True spl is something that the average guy can understand easily, but does everything in the early 21st century have to be easy?

Sq is a chess game, SPL is brute force.

I can do a desent number with my comp car, can most spl competitors say the same for doing sq with their vehicle???

Well anyway I don't want to start a P***ing contest so I will leave it at this.

Markey Dietrich

[wagonmaster]

Originally posted by The General:
At Spring Break Jam, there was this KILLER Focal car that myself and shootme from this forum wanted to hear, he had tons of championship stickers on the side. We didn't even get to see the inside, let alone hear it. It was locked in the parking lot the entire weekend except for when he was being judged.



It seems like we are making a step backwards in compitition having our vehicles closed and locked. How can beginers or just interested spectators see what compitition cars are all about, if they are locked tight.

Tim



------------------
SD State Champion
AMA 0-150
now in WYO
Team Wave
Audiocontrol Winners circle
IASCA# COM0002059

[CraigMBA]

The only time you'll find my car closed and locked is right before I drive out of the parking lot. Frankly, I don't see very many locked cars at shows compared to the ones that are opened up.

I find that locked cars are few and far in between. The ones that **** me off are the ones that are closed and with the ultra sensitive alarm that's ARMED and keeps getting triggered. Ugh........

------------------
Carlton Duty Jr.
Public Relations
Arc Audio/Rainbow USA

[pPCpunk]

Ya - perhaps his article "offended" a few people but ya....that happens when you paint a negative view of something that people try their hardest at and put their hearts/money/time into. With that said - I have to say most of its true....While I am sure this fella does recognize - people take time out of their busy lives to sit in a hot parking lot and listen to car after car for basically nothing - he is still correct in the the sense that these people are flawed - why you would think he doesnt recognize people dont care/take time for/whatever I dont know perhaps you are just offended and don't really care what he is saying - but it makes complete sense to me.

I also love reading articles like this.

[Kompressor]

I usually don't post on here too much, but here is how I see things... Way back in 1986 I believe, it was my understanding that the normal competition was a show where sq, install, rta, and spl were all equal. In order to win you had to do all well. Everyone with a stereo was able to compete because in that time a person with good sq probably didn't have a decent spl, and the person with great spl only had mediocre sq. So it was a pretty level playing field across the board and evetyone could show their individuality according to the type of install and what it catered to most (sq or spl) Things now have become more individualized and more purpose built and have lost the feeling of being available for anyone to do. My first years competing I wanted sq but was more of a ghetto blaster and never did to well at any givien show. The minute I built the car to be purpose built for sound quality, the doors opened right up. But I lost the "stereo you could play down the street" feeling.. Somewhere between then and now a fork in the road was made and we are having a problem bringing it back together.

But that's just me. :)



------------------
George Saltzman
97 Prelude
Consumer 151-300

[Chris Koerbel]

I (as an SQ-guy in a team consisting of SQ and SPL-freaks and a successful competitor in Europe) pretty much feel the same like George - though I come from Germany. I follow the scene in the states, lived their for 2 years (my car was on display in the Polk-booth on the world finals in 96) and have a subscription to 3 major US-mags. Furthermore we have the same problems over here in Germany.

In my opinion the spoken about editorial is not so far of and I liked reading it.
On the other hand - looking at the judges, Car-Competition has not really the same status as a big sports event - probably NASCAR, where officials are paid a ****load of money to "judge" cars if they are to the rules or not. People "spend" their time because it is their hobby. And I assume everybody is doing his best. There is a sanctioning body that is "teaching" all judges and tries to give the same standard to every judge. But every judge is an individual with certain abilities and disabilities and - should not because subjective - likes and dislikes. This adds up to a certain number of points and so on.

In my opinion this is not the "real" problem for SQ.
The problem is that you can not really successful start for fun in an SQ-event with a normal - let me call it "basic street" - install. Everybody will laugh. And you will loose big time. So why should this novice come to a second competition?
The SQ rules are ok, this is something that does not need much discussion and can be achieved more or less with a clever and cheap installation.
Who really cares for RTA? If the car sounds right there is no need to run another program to gain points here. This has really nothing to do with SQ.
Why measure SPL - because of the fun part. OK - but it also has not really anything to do with SQ.
And now the biggest problem - the install rules. They are complex and expensive to realize. This is something that most possible novices over here are afraid of. OK - there has to be a standard of safety when you install a component. That should be checked. Everything else has nothing to do with SQ.
And SoundQuality is what SQ-competition is about.
Go back to the basics, give everybody down the road the chance to start in a competition. This is my thought of bringing back the people to SQ-competition. Because that´s the way I was hooked to it more then 10 years ago.

And then there can be another class - maybe called expert - where the full program is evaluated: SQ, RTA, SPL, Install to the existing rulebook. The price money could be higher so that everybody looks at it as the top-class.

Just two classes: "Sound" and "Sound with installation, RTA and SPL".
And competitors - open up your cars and tell the crowd what you are doing and why you are doing the hobby.

And finally - SPL is another Car-Hifi-sport, Maybe like Rally and Nascar. I have no problem with SPL.

Chris

[ralphyboy]

I notice there are a lot of IASCA people here so I hope you don't hate me...But my view on this subject is, its hard to come up with the cash to compete. In my NOVICE class at the USAC finals there were many competitors who should have been classified pro. The girl who took 5th, even stated in a magazine article on her car,That she worked at the shop that did the install. So just to compete at a novice level you have to throw down loads of cash. I will admit I had a ton of fun and will continue to do it. I became good friends with my direct competitors. At that finals all hell broke loose in my car and all of them helped to fix and then tune my car. somehow we have to explain to new competitors the gains for there sacrifice. Making it more exiting wouldn't hurt either.

[Bnjmn]

You do not need loads of cash to compete at anything but the Expert level. The Street class makes things even more affordable. If you invest time in learning fiberglass basics, visit shows and listen to cars, and build a car by the rule book, then you have evened the playing field. SQ comps have matured to the point where it isn't easy to do well, which will turn a lot of people away. When the quality of the field is consistently high I agree that it is imposing. Just like anything else though, hard work, some research, and creativity can yield a winner.

------------------
Benjamin Lesnak
---------------------
IASCA PRO Ultimate 601+
Ampman Audio, Audiomobile, Scosche

[Zapco Dave]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamie Edmundson:
[B]Post up what you think about this editorial. It was written by an editor who I've never heard of in AS&S.:

I have to give the same benefit of doubt that Markey gave him in that the article was written tongue in cheek. I sure hope so.

To be honest, I would love to have a qualified music industry person listen to my system, and give me his/her unbiased feedback. However, given how poorly judging pays (not to mention the fact that most show promoters cannot afford to cover travel expenses), having a recording engineer and/or producer judge sound quality is not terribly realistic.

It would be safe to say that all of us who have competed with any degree of frequency have had judges who are very good, those who are average, and those who should never, ever be allowed to judge anyone's system. At this point in time, it is hard enough finding judges - period.

IASCA DID help matters by letting judges earn competition awards points toward Finals. This addresses the conflict of interest that can occur when someone is judging and competing at the same event. From a promoters standpoint, it makes it easier to find people willing to judge without worrying about losing the opportunity to earn valuable points. It also helps the people who are judging to better focus on the task of judging without the distractions of preparing one's own vehicle for the judging process.

There is another point regarding judging that has not been addressed that is a very important factor. In addition to understanding, and being able to properly HEAR the criteria laid out in the rule book, a judge has to be able to understand how to properly SCORE the car. These elements do NOT necessarily go hand in hand. I have had judges who compress the point scales so much that it is possible for a mediocre system to score very closely to a good system.

Another factor centers around the judges ability to relate to the contestant, specifically the time, effort, and money it takes to build a competition system. Can a music industry person appreciate just how difficult it is to build a very good sounding CAR audio system? I doubt it.

Personally, I have no problem with a car audio industry person judging my system as long as they:

1) are properly trained
2) are someone who has actually competed themselves
3) have passed a hearing test
4) have some recent listening experience of live music

The keys to bringing back SQ competition to the level it was "back in the day" are:

1) Put a SERIES of shows on the event calendar for the regions in which SQ is dormant. One of the shows needs to be Regional Final. This is needed to intice competitors - existing and new - to come out of the woodwork.

2) Actively recruit contestants; this can be done at the retail level by shops who do custom work. This is needed to ensure a good turnout at the first event.

3) Recruit and train a reliable pool of judges. This is necessary to ensure that the competitors will come to other events.

4) Make the events FUN, for the contestants, the spectators, and the judges. This is necessary to intice spectators to come back.

How do you folks feel about this?




------------------
Dave Ritter, Zapco
(209) 577-4268, ext. 123
dave@zapco.com

[CraigMBA]

Originally posted by Zapco Dave:
[QUOTE]
How do you folks feel about this?


I think you and I ought to head down to the Outback, discuss how much I agree with you, and scare the snot out of the kitchen staff by ordering two of everything and a diet coke to go with it.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/smile.gif

[ralphyboy]

First I would like to say to a teenager the 3-5000 needed for a true finals endeavor is a load of cash. I mean no disrespect. Secondly anything to get spectators would be great for everybody involved. We need to get sponsors from outside the industry( I.E. Coke, Pepsi, NBA, etc.) to get people who would not normally go to these events to do just that. This is why auto racing is so popular. We also need personalities John Force is likely very fun to be around. If every soundoff was a car show also, that would force competitors to not be jerks and keep their cars open for another type of judging. Hell I'm jogging my brain, it hurts!!

------------------
Ralph Longo
SQ competitor

[MDietrich]

Hello all,

I see this thread is still working.

I have a couple of questions for anybody that cares to take a crack........

Why is this sport always focused on "Finals"?


Why is it always assumed it takes a boat load of money to win at Finals?


seeya
Markey Dietrich

[CraigMBA]

Originally posted by MDietrich:
Why is this sport always focused on "Finals"?

That's a good question.

Why is it always assumed it takes a boat load of money to win at Finals?


To win? I doesn't.

To ATTEND finals in N.C. from the west coast? IT DOES!


------------------
Carlton Duty Jr.
Public Relations
Arc Audio/Rainbow USA

[Chris Koerbel]

Hi Markey,

to Item 1)

I am in sound cometition because I want to have fun, be with my team-members, see different places and - be as good as possible (realistic target) with the effort I put in the car. And I think I am not alone - you always have to have a goal your heading for!

to Item 2)
The traveling aspect is definetely a fact.
But as far as equipment goes, you do not have to spend much money.
I tried the extreme and installed only a Nakamichi Head Unit, a set of tweeters (in the a-pilar by the way...:)), 13cm Mids to the kick panel and 16,5cm Subwoofers to the door. I used custom Xovers on all speakers and bi-amping. I put lots of time in speaker placement, angling, Xovers and build the best sounding car (overall performance= so far. I made clever choices on the speakers and was able to hit 105dB´s with the HU at full (undisturbed!!!) throttle.
I think I put more time in that car then a lot of other competitiors in cars with much more show effect.
And I finally won the German championship in the Pro 150 category in 1999 and 2000!!!

I think this is definetely an answer to Item 2). But you have to know what you are doing...:)

Chris

[Chris Koerbel]

O.k. I have to admit:
It was done in a very little Interior (Mercedes SLK). Otherwise I would have never been able to get the required sub-bass with the 2x 16.5cm

But a smart choice starts with the car....:)

Chris

[smakdwn]

Originally posted by MDietrich:
Hello all,

Why is this sport always focused on "Finals"?


couple of reasons:
(opinion of a nov competitior and long
time car audio guy)

1 - decline of local and regional events.
2 - A carry over when everybody did not recieve an invite to finals.



Why is it always assumed it takes a boat load of money to win at Finals?

Don't it? show me a 2000.00 Dollar system
(including install) that has won finals? Not saying thier are none but I'd like to see it




------------------
Ralph Hunter
proud member of dBs
Iasca 1-300/1-600 Nov (again?!?)
GOT NOS??
If my car is rice, it must be instant, cause it cooks!!

[Bnjmn]

If you are willing to put in the time to learn how to install correctly, you can put together a very reasonably priced system that'll score really well at Finals. Especially with the street class, but if the car sounds great you could enter Ultimate and probably do very well too.
A sample system (some used stuff in here)-
Head-Pioneer P1R- $300
Amps- a 4x50 watt and a 2 x 100 for the subs.
($800)
Speakers- 5 or 6 speakers total- 6.5" comp set and a pair of 10s or 12s ($800)
Wiring/fusing- $100
Materials for making kicks, amp rack, other pieces, vinyl,plus all other miscellaneous materials- $$350 max

For tools- a good jigsaw, router, and drill will be good enough to make just about anything you want. We'll throw in some bits and misc. tools and we are up to $300

That puts us at $2650...we'll round that up to $2700 and that is everthing you'll need except a vehicle. Now it will take a some time to learn and make the parts, but with a bunch of large car audio forums on line now, you have a lot of help available.

------------------
Benjamin Lesnak
---------------------
IASCA PRO Ultimate 601+
Ampman Audio, Audiomobile, Scosche

[SQ CAMRY]

Originally posted by MDietrich:
[b]Why is it always assumed it takes a boat load of money to win at Finals?

Don't it? show me a 2000.00 Dollar system
(including install) that has won finals? Not saying thier are none but I'd like to see it



I got a $2000 install and almost won. Tied anyway. Oh I forgot the $3000 in equipment. Still relatively cheap. And the reason I went ama-street vice ultimate.

------------------
Ama-street 601+
sqcamry@home.com
MB Quart competition team
Team Rockford Fosgate #38
Alpine/MB Quart/Rockford Fosgate

Check out my new webpage.
http://www.carsound.com/cgi-bin/install_search.cgi?action=show&member=sq%20camry&m ake=Toyota (http://www.carsound.com/cgi-bin/install_search.cgi?action=show&member=sq%20camry&make=Toyota)

[This message has been edited by SQ CAMRY (edited June 29, 2001).]

[Sparky]

I would consider myself an SQ guy, but i pretty much completley agree with the article. Sound engies do this kind of thing for a living, I would think they are better suited to do judging.
SQ and SPL each have their own difficulties. To say one is more elite than the other is impossible. Both take a ton of time and money.
But you have to admit, most people would rather see a dbdrag than some guy listening to a car. To say either one is easy is just plain wrong.

I think the whole idea of saying exactly how it should sound is rediculous. Who listens to this car most? the judge or you?

Since everyone always says, "it's about how good it sounds to you." have you ever altered your install to impress a judge? Even though you may have thought it sounded great.

[ralphyboy]

1) Finals is what you prepare for during the season, kind of like the superbowl. You have to get there first, then you can try to do well.

2) Between the hotels and travel expenses a season is not cheap at all, and that's not including the show or install costs, and if you you want to try for points champ $$$$
It's worth it if you enjoy it would you guys not agree.

------------------
Ralph Longo
SQ competitor

[ralphyboy]

I hate spl. They can show up late to the show, they create noise pollution while they are there and they by nature are loud and obnoxious, then they get their trophies first. But they are the most fun at dinner, the spectators come because of them, and the shows are there because of the spectators. I figure they are helping me in a way, so I try not to complain to much.

------------------
Ralph Longo
SQ competitor

[Major Jam]

On the whole SPL vs. SQ thing...

You kinda have to have all these classes and watt cataegories to get people to compete. Different strokes for different folks. You can't force them all into one category at one price or else they won't enter (compete). And that is the only way to get people to come out and to make money. It's all about money... but I digress...

People are different... face it... That's why we have Indy car racing (endurance), track racing (Nascar), drag racing (power/speed), off-road (those other racers), demolition derby (you know why), monster truck racing (etc.).

I'll go to the drag races BEFORE I'll go to Indianapolis. Personal taste, that simple. But I don't hate Nascar. If I was in Indianapolis and I had tickets, I'd go.

As you can see, we have at least two more categories we should have at USAC/IASCA/ibBl. http://www.carsound.com/ubb/smile.gif

-Mike

[smakdwn]

Originally posted by SQ CAMRY:
[b] [QUOTE]Originally posted by MDietrich:
I got a $2000 install and almost won. Tied anyway. Oh I forgot the $3000 in equipment. Still relatively cheap. And the reason I went ama-street vice ultimate.



Charles, I'm talking 2000.00 Total! :) CA&E built a sq system for a lil over 3000.00 but I don' think that system would of been very competitive at a national level under the what is now ult rules.



------------------
Ralph Hunter
proud member of dBs
Iasca 1-300/1-600 Nov (again?!?)
GOT NOS??
If my car is rice, it must be instant, cause it cooks!!

[MDietrich]

Hello all,

Since this thread is taking a radical turn, why don't we start posting on a new thread?
I will name it "Why the focus on Finals"

Markey Dietrich

[TheRealSystek]

Originally posted by wagonmaster:
It seems like we are making a step backwards in compitition having our vehicles closed and locked. How can beginers or just interested spectators see what compitition cars are all about, if they are locked tight.

Tim




thats why i stuck around until the show was over w/my car open...sure, i didnt win anything but that wasnt my reason for attending...i wanted to show of my install, cause i did it all by myself and was proud to show it off/demo for the spectators...


------------------
http://members.cardomain.com/systek

Enjoy the drive...
...even if its 1400 miles before you get there